Thursday, April 17, 2008

Common Courtesy: Sleeping with the Dodo

Has common courtesy gone the way of the dodo? Maybe I’m just too old. Let me tell you what I mean.

If you’ve read my last couple of posts, you know that I was recently part of a Kara group that fell apart. I’m desperately trying to get into a new group to experience some of the BC endgame content before the new expansion hits and nobody wants to go anymore. AQ? Bless you!

I’ve spent the past week hitting the trade channel from time to time trying to recruit Kara ready players. It hasn’t worked at all. I have discovered that if you’re a Holy Paladin that you will get requests like crazy to join their guild. Interesting that it can be so nice to be wanted and yet annoying beyond belief all at the same time.

Since the recruiting wasn’t going so well, I decided to at least entertain the idea of joining another guild or hope to find one willing to group with us. So I watched the trade channel for recruiting macros. I asked for information such as a website, raid times, etc. Then I started hitting up Warcrafter and Be Imba! to review their gear levels and whether or not it appeared they really could do the raids they advertised.

Eventually I talked to someone that invited us to join their guild which I’m always wary to do initially. Want to try someone out before committing to joining. Don’t want to be known as a guild jumper. However, she seemed really nice and what we are looking for so I talked to her for a bit and said I’d talk to my friends about setting something up.

Skipping through some of the issues getting set up, which became apparent later, we joined up and started running through Karazhan. My first warning should have come when we showed up and I wasn’t sure who the other healer was. I later found out it was the GM I had been talking to. I could have sworn I ran a report on her and she was a tank. Maybe I was wrong, but I wasn’t sure and didn’t think about it. But maybe she was asked to respec.

It turned out that the raid leader had just joined the guild. Apparently he was there to help smaller guilds run through Karazhan and then move on to others in an attempt to train first time raiders for the end game content. That said I ran a Be Imba! report on him and he came out with Karazhan gear and a gear score of 174. Nothing indicating he had done the higher end content. Granted, I have no idea if he has an alt.

On the first pull he informed everyone to stand within melee range. Didn’t say why, just instructed everyone to stay in melee range. For ranged dps and healers this was a different concept. He offered no explanation, no one asked. At first I thought, OK we might have a “know-it-all” here, but I’ll give him a chance. Turns out he had a point.

I’ve been to Kara several times, but never really thought about the first trash pull. The groups I’ve been in have always done the classic stay out of range, etc. Some particular steeds charge when the aggro switches making it difficult for the tanks to stay on them. The closer you are the easier it is for the tank to get back. Only after it happened a few times did the Raid Leader sarcastically say “That’s why we stay in melee range.” This guy started to rub me the wrong way.
But again he was here to train these guys run Kara. This isn’t my guild. We’re here to test it out. Give it a chance and see what happens. The guy definitely did know and understand Kara and quite frankly pointed out some things that I knew but never thought about, or just didn’t know. Nothing big, nothing profound, just small things that made it go a little bit smoother.

By the time we got to Attumen and he explained the fight, we took the boss down with relative ease. The one difference for us is that it took almost twice as long as we are used to. This guild’s dps is very low compared to what we had in the past. It’s doable, but I don’t believe we’ll get too far the first few times with them. They need more gear to up that dps. We’re fine with helping out. We were there a month ago.

The Fiery Warhorse’s Reins dropped. Before rolling the RL announced that the GM, since she was the GM, would get a +10 roll to her roll for the reins. OK, I don’t know if this is typical in other guilds, but I’ve never seen this before. Just because someone is in a management position doesn’t entitle them to special benefits. Everyone is an equal. Everyone did their job to take down the boss. What entitles any particular person to be elevated above any other? Because it’s just the reins, I didn’t say anything. It also didn’t bother me that much, but I still think WTH?! Didn’t matter because my tanking friend won the roll anyway, which made me bust out laughing.

As we moved to the stairs to tackle the next boss, the Raid Leader informed us we were skipping Moroes and moving to Maiden. OK fine, I like Maiden more anyway. Still want her mace drop. Somewhere along the line he decides that he’s going to replace my fire mage friend with a shadow priest. Not sure why and never found out. He announces in voice chat “Thanks for coming, appreciate it.” and then kicks him out of the party and invites another. My friends and I are stunned! We don’t know what just happened! There was no warning, there was no request, just a blatant dismissal and let’s move on.

At once, my warrior friend announces that he can leave too if they want to bring a mage and leaves the party. I whisper the GM that I’m leaving as well that “We don’t play that way. We all succeed together or fail together. I’d be just as upset if he kicked out one of yours without asking.” The four of us promptly left Karazhan.
The GM spent the rest of the evening apologizing saying the RL was new and didn’t know how things were done. She said this isn’t typical of her guild and not allowed. She didn’t know he was going to do that. Basically she spent the evening trying to salvage whatever potential relationship we might have. We all agreed that she was sincere, but regardless if this guy knows his stuff or not, that’s no excuse for lack of common courtesy.

My friends and I play to hang out with friends, experience new content together, celebrate in each other’s victories, help each other out, etc. This guild appears to have the same attitudes towards the game as we do.

We do not allow or accept the following:

Being told what, where, when, how, and with whom we can raid, quest, or group with.
Telling others what, where, when, how, and with whom they can raid, quest or group with.

Being told or telling others how to spec or play their classes.

Removing or replacing someone from a raid or group because we need to, want to, or just have the power to do so.

Everyone’s an equal, whether you’re in Tier 6 gear or the lowly level 5 in the guild.

Being rude or inconsiderate in any way, shape, or fashion. Just follow the Golden Rule.

Now I know exactly what raiders might say to the first two. Please re-read carefully what I wrote.

If a sign up system is set up and followed, that is different. If I can’t go because I signed up late, that’s my fault. No one dictated. If a rank system is set up that supersedes sign up times, again that is different. If I’m told that I can’t go because my gear is inadequate, that is different. Basically, if I’m being told to do something arbitrarily, I won’t do it. There must be a reason and that reason must be valid and fair.

I don’t tell you how to play your class, don’t tell me how to play mine. I’m barely an expert, if at all, at my own class. I’d look like an idiot telling you what to do. Besides, it’s rude. Offering advice has its place. It must be handled lightly and with care. Generally speaking, don’t do it. Let the person’s friend do it; whatever it takes to avoid hurting feelings. Raiders might find that statement stupid. But my response is what gave you the right to be an ass because you’re hiding behind an online avatar? Ask yourself, would you do this in person? If so, how would you handle it? Given that the average person is at least somewhat of a decent person, handle it that way.

If you set up a group for whatever reason and someone in that group isn’t cutting it, you fail together. Accept it. Kicking someone out will only lead to hurt feelings, anger, bitterness, guild drama, etc. Abandon and regroup another time. Easier said than done. Hopefully if you are one of those people, please offer to leave. It makes it easier on everyone else who doesn’t want to be rude. If you are asked to leave in a polite manner, please do so and remember that as the others gear up and move through, they'll be that much better to help you to come back.

There is no problem with asking a particular person to leave. You’ll ask them to not take it personal, but please realize that they will. If they refuse, disband and end it. You accepted their help. They got you to whatever point you ended up at. They deserve to see it to the end or none do. If they accept, replace them and move on. Common courtesy.

My question is am I unrealistic to expect these things in a raiding guild? Are there no raiding guilds out there like this? If there are any in Arathor, please let me know because I’m looking for one.

Have I just gotten old? Or is common courtesy sleeping with the dodo?


Anonymous said...

It sounds like your run, was a test for the Raid Leader... its unfortunate that you were on it. Whereas its important to get the right group make up for some fights, and you can't always get the right combination.. but sometimes other combinations work and depends on the circumstances. A Shadow Priest would only be additionally useful to the maiden fight if you didnt have a Pally who could dispel. It was unfair of the RL to kick the mage without warning and the decision as to what bosses you can/can't do because of group make up should have been made clear at the start You are all now locked into Kara for a week –

My experiences with raiding is that if by removing a 10th player means that the other 9 + an sub can succeed ( and depending of Value of goal.) 22 badges in a kara clear, or completing the daily heroic, then its worth doing it. BUT you do it politely - you try it first, and if you are repeatedly wiping then you have issues and need to fix, and the mage may not of been the best person to send away. Those sorts of groups are where people stage an instance sit in if they get unfairly kicked. Bit hard to replace you if your still in the instance , in group or not.

I'm happy to go along with most things if you tell me about it before hand, as then I have a choice. Do I agree with the Pug Loot rules for high end instances? - if not. I can make an informed decision and not do the run. If the mage had known he was going to get kicked after the 1st boss, and agreed.. thats different. The RL sounds like an A*hat.

As for the +10 rolls, thats an interesting way of doing it, its alot fairer then they getting 1st choice and being GM can be a thankless job, and they also set the rules, ( sounds like the Raid leader set this one up to put him in the Gms favour) but again.. Whats fair is letting people know before hand.

My guild have what we call a 'wall of text' when a new member comes in, it tells them our Vent, and Forums, with instructions to go familarise themselves with the raid rules, and if you go into a raid without one of the compulsory mods, you will be replaced. Thats the rule. Our Kara greens go into the Bank for Mats and Money - we don't get to roll on them - but that then pays for Pots/flasks and food for Raid runs. We don't have to supply. Thats the joy of being aware, if I didn't like the rules I could chose not to join, but they don’t make up rules on the spot –

Kyrilean said...

Absolutely 100% agree with everything you just said. If it's known before hand and agreed to, great! One can always choose to not be a part of it.

Not disagreeing that maybe that's the way to do it in some guilds, but unfortunately this was a trial run to see if we would fit with them. On the plus side, it showed we didn't.

Anonymous said...

I like the idea of putting all greens in the guild bank. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to do a guild-only run through Kara yet.

In our first group, before the big blowup, everyone shared equally in the loot. It worked.

In the latest run that Ky's post is about, they kept everything for their guild. That was one of many rude moments in that short-lived run. I have to wonder what would have happened when Tier 4 dropped from Curator (or any other gear that someone from my guild could have used, for that matter).

Anyway, I consider it a learning experience. It wasn't a total bust. I did get the Fiery Warhorse's Reins, afterall.

the 'tank friend' with the cool ass mount